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Go Figure....

Ok well... I was looking for some retro pin-up style art for a project of mine, and it got me to thinking...

Women! Why do you treat your figures so? This style for having NO figure is horrible! Ok so if you are naturally slight then it looks fine, but why do it to yourself other wise?


Now doesn't she look nice?


Doesn't the girl here look beautiful? Better than any of the 1001 catwalk models? Why don't we show people a figure to aspire to like that? Rather than these awful stick thin twiglets?

*sighs*

I just don't get it.

Comments

( 38 comments — Leave a comment )
(Deleted comment)
(Deleted comment)
20_20retrospect
12th Dec, 2002 21:18 (UTC)
i deleted that first comment because i needed to edit it for clarity.

thanks for the support.
darkcryst
13th Dec, 2002 10:24 (UTC)
Re:
oh because your office buddies think they are fine I'm not allowed to? Gooooood reasoning.

Granted theres a lot of that.. but you also have to remember its comparitive.

The twig thin look has come about due to fashion, not actual clothes but the industry... its easier to make clothes for them and display on piss weak models. You show the population at large women who look attractive and thin (and I do happen to think Kate Moss, one of the thinner ones, is very attractive) and they like them.. show them that all the time and they become fixed.

And please don't try to make this all about the men. Thats totally flawed reasoning. If women didn't pander to the trends like this then it wouldn't be so ingrained. It wasn't 20 years ago... Twiggy was one of the first models to instigate that trend, it became more striking and about the difference in the 70's. by the 80's there was a general mix. the 90's were the age of the supermodel.

The crux of your argument is "women are weak and want to please men all the time"... come on.

Yes, women want to apear attractive to men. The same is true in reverse. However women classically have been more influenced by this aspect (its been stronger socially).

In the end this comes down to social conditioning... hense my line.

"Why don't we show people a figure to aspire to like that?"

Don't make this a war of the sexes.. its shallow and purile, and to be honest VERY pointless for both sexes are at fault..
20_20retrospect
13th Dec, 2002 12:59 (UTC)
it was never my intention to make it a war of the sexes.

the crux of my argument was not so ill-found to say that women are weak and only care about pleasing men. rather, there is a certain dynamic between the sexes that causes them to go to (often) extreme lengths to appear attractive to the other. i cannot tell you how many times i've thought "if i only looked like her, then (insert name here) would want to be with me." which is an insane line of reasoning! though commonly considered thin, i myself suffer from an almost-obsessive need to stay thin. there have been times when anorexia was just over the horizon and i had to force myself to eat.

i agree that it does come down to social conditioning. the advertising industry is to blame, if you really take a hard look. they sell the image: the image dictated by society and reflective of socity. and we all buy it. both men and women.

however, you cannot entirely dismiss the idea that men aid in the psychotic need to be thin. a bastard by the name of michael once told me that one of the reasons he liked me and wanted to date me is because i'm thin. (what the hell was that?) also, do you know how many times i've sat and listened to men make disparaging comments about "fat chicks" who are really just curvy marilyn monroe-types? this certainly doesn't help women feel good about their already socially-unapproved bodytype.

so, rather than give society any particular image to aspire to, why not give them no image and let each person decide for themselves what is beautiful and attractive.

to each their own. i simply spoke truth as i've found it.
darkcryst
13th Dec, 2002 17:56 (UTC)
Re:
No I don't disagree that men have nothing to do with it. I just think they have as much to do with it as women. My point there was that raising that is like pointing at the sky and saying its blue.. its accurate, but hardly a good job of explaination or looking for the why its blue.

And your description of this micheal sounds spot on. The man is a bastard..

As for your observations about society... that sadens me... and also makes me want what I said more.

Yes we could not give anyone an image to aspire to.. but as we're in the real world and have advertising and social imagery (As all groups do.. however big or small) then thats not goign to happen is it?

I am mearly pleading for a more realistic and heathly body image.
20_20retrospect
12th Dec, 2002 20:39 (UTC)
before i give you an answer, i have a counter-question.

why to men sigh and look longingly at the twiglet 1001 catwalk models?

oh, don't even start saying "but i think that victoria's secret models are unattractively too thin." because whenever i whip my latest catalogue out at work, the resident office boys all stop and drool for a moment.

so...
women want to be deemed beautiful by men. men-at-large consider "twiggy" beautiful. therefore, women-at-large make being/achieving "twiggy" their physical goal.

end of psychoanalysis.
shineyquarter
12th Dec, 2002 21:37 (UTC)
Um yeah, what she said!
rinnywee
12th Dec, 2002 23:39 (UTC)
You take a Victoria's Secret catalogue out at work and are surprised that men stop and drool?

I do not agree that the whole drive for women to want to be thin comes from men, however. Women are just as to blame for this, and while initially it may have been something sparked by fashion, and wanting to look good in whatever clothes designers (and by that I mean Dior et. al. of the mid 20th century) were coming up with.

Look back to this particular time when all this "thin mania" supposedly began with fashion designers. You had starlets like Marilyn Monroe and Mae West making the men's hearts go pitter patter. Hardly what I'd call stick thin.

Even then, the Twiggy phenomenon of the 1960s, men were still going mad over the like of Natalie Wood and Sophia Loren - again, hardly what I would call "twiggy".

Saying that the trends of body shape are dictated by what men find attractive is, in my opinion, incorrect. Saying that it is heavily influenced by the fashion industry is certainly correct, and yes a majority of men design clothes for women (haute couture) and have always done.

However, if you look to the vast number of modern models that men are sighing over, you'll see that it's women like Gisele Bundschen and so on. She is not what I would call a twiglet. Thin, yes, but she's a model. But I certainly would not call her out of proportion or overly skinny.

Then go and look at what guys date... "normal" girls. If we really wanted to be fair in this argument, we should also turn the question around, and start examining the behaviour of men and their desire to look "hot" and "buff".
shineyquarter
13th Dec, 2002 05:56 (UTC)
Perhaps I am in an odd location but the guys around here for the most part are dating the really thin "normal" girls.

Also you are right about looking at things from the other side. It is all a matter of what is considered sexy by both sides. For whatever reason, fashion or otherwise, what we (society) think is sexy seems to change from time to time and people will try their hardest to be what they think they should be.

*sigh*

Oh for a time when we can all accept ourselves for who we are.
darkcryst
13th Dec, 2002 10:35 (UTC)
Re:
yeah... that would be nice wouldn't it?

I have to say.. from an external perspective.. america is very much more erm... infected.. with the attitude "thin = heathly and attractive"

Neither is of cource true.. often women can make themselves really unheathly by trying for a figure they ctaully can't have.
shineyquarter
13th Dec, 2002 13:40 (UTC)
I agree with your "external perspective."

When I see foreign films I am always impressed but the beauty I find in the people in them. Beauty that isn't the stereotype.

Anyway... I see you have much other thought provoking commenting going on so I will sit quietly in the corner and watch.
darkcryst
13th Dec, 2002 17:59 (UTC)
Re:
lol... no comments of your own? Feel free.

Stereotypes are country specific.. well.. thats incorrect... cluture specific.

Indian culture is very different, but has that western influance.. but with a twist.
shineyquarter
13th Dec, 2002 18:17 (UTC)
I think I am rather out of my league on this one.

I would rather work on just accepting myself, helping those around me accept themselves, and not worry too much about society right now.
darkcryst
13th Dec, 2002 18:37 (UTC)
Re:
heh... well indeed.

Really this was just a thought that struck me late night...

amazing what sort of responce its gotten.

At the end of the day though.. if more people accepted themselves and not an image.. they'd be much happier.

I guess thats a good point to take from all of this.
shineyquarter
13th Dec, 2002 19:13 (UTC)
Well I tend to think we should find the basic truth and disregard the superfluous.

You did start a rather big bunch of comments. ;-)
darkcryst
14th Dec, 2002 02:14 (UTC)
Re:
well indeed I couldn't agree more.

and yeah I did didn't I?

Still thats a good thing I think!
darkcryst
13th Dec, 2002 10:29 (UTC)
Re:
the hot or buff thing... its just the same thing 20_20 was saying but with the roles reversed. No real need to deabte it.

But yes.. exactly, and liek I said.. its a social change thats needed.

As for personal opinion I have found women who are very thin and women who have a figure to be very attractive. Its about the person.

What I am commenting on here is a social trend, not personal politics.
rinnywee
13th Dec, 2002 11:01 (UTC)
Re:
Is not social change dependant, first and foremost, on a change of personal politics and attitudes?
darkcryst
13th Dec, 2002 11:38 (UTC)
Re:
Not on a indidual level no. In a group level yes. But that becomes group politics. It takes a group to influence other groups.. thats how society works.

You will never have everyone believing the same personal politics, you can have those same people believing in group politics that broadly align (not even agree.. but aligh) with their own.

Thus is the sad world we live in. At the end of the day we can go off down a tangent for everyones personal politics, and all without really paying anything but lip service to the social policies and ideas behind the original idea.. that was the purpose of that comment.
rinnywee
13th Dec, 2002 11:42 (UTC)
Re:
But our personal politics and believes shape and influence group politics. Saying that social change is separate from personal opinion and politics is incorrect, imo.
darkcryst
13th Dec, 2002 12:04 (UTC)
Re:
Not seperate no... I don't believe its directly linked though.

Sure it influences social and group politics, it takes some people with a like mind to start that group after all, but not all of them will be on the same part of the page.

Think of what I'm saying in musical terms.. a group can be influence by say.. Metalica.. while still soundsing like... hmm Esthero.

The outcome is not always directly linked.

I agree that they do havea relationship, but in this particular context (this specific discussion) that that relationship would serve as a distraction, not a founding block of discussion.
rinnywee
13th Dec, 2002 12:22 (UTC)
Re:
Heh, this really is not surprising me at all.
darkcryst
13th Dec, 2002 17:29 (UTC)
Re:
oh? why you say that?
rinnywee
14th Dec, 2002 07:07 (UTC)
*snorts and chuckles some more*
darkcryst
14th Dec, 2002 18:35 (UTC)
Re:
O_o

useful response that
sweetmonsoon
13th Dec, 2002 03:16 (UTC)
hmmm...
*not Nina*

Well... I try and shy away from extrapolating too much when analysing things like this. After all I only know what I think and feel, and for me (A man, using my wife lj account to post here as Greg as set it so only lj users can post; the swine) when I look at pictures of "twiglet 1001 catwalk models" I really do think that they look very unattractive, and I assure you there is a distinct lack of drool. What I personally find attractive body wise are women who have some more substance to them, indeed in allot of the pin up art from latter years I do see women who I find very attractive. However, for me personally I think that there are 2 things that far outweigh the "attractiveness" or lack thereof of the female body, and that is the face, and demeanor. The face is pretty self explanatory, and when I say demeanor I am referring to a mixture of personality and how much they love themselves and are happy, and this does not relate from pictures... so I find I can look at a picture of a beautiful woman and say; "yeah, she looks very nice" and that is it. (did I mention I was odd) But of course a large distinction needs to be made between the attractiveness you have for someone on the TV and in magazines (who are unattainable) and to a certain degree if you look only for you next one night stand, and the attractiveness you look for in a potential long term partner.

I believe that what one person finds attractive will often be very different to what the next person does, so that in the example of “women want to be thinner to please men” this just does not work as not all men want thin women. It is rather that allot of women think that men want thin women, and this idea is reinforced by the predominance of very thin women in today’s popular imagery. It just isn’t the case, and there are plenty of women in the public eye who are not twiglets and who are considered to be very attractive indeed…
The same goes for men as well of course… they are also being shown images of “buff” guys who get the girl…

Of course it is natural to want to strive to make yourself look good, after all every animal does that, but it can easily be taken to extremes though.
darkcryst
13th Dec, 2002 10:31 (UTC)
Re: hmmm...
No I'm with you all the way there Richard.

Things that grab me most - the face and the personality. The rest is (very enjoyable) window dressing, for its all flexable and subject to change.



nuttyvegan
13th Dec, 2002 04:22 (UTC)
wow.
*bows down*
*clears throat*
yo' the man, darkcryst!
;)
darkcryst
13th Dec, 2002 11:28 (UTC)
Re:
*laughs*
Thank you.
archaicangel
13th Dec, 2002 06:19 (UTC)
I don't try to look like "twiggy"... However, if you look at the clothing industry, the commercials on television, the publicity that is everywhere, it's not hard to figure out that most women think the ideal is the stick look. Personally, I think it's entirely to blah, but hey.... Some people like it.
darkcryst
13th Dec, 2002 11:27 (UTC)
Re:
Well indeed... I'm not really talking about specific people here...

And sure thin can look great. But that doesn't mean everyone has to...
(Deleted comment)
darkcryst
13th Dec, 2002 11:27 (UTC)
Re:
good! Great! Thats fine :)

I personally think you look great as you are, you're naturally very thin and you work with that..

I've more thinking about the girls and women that have great figures but try to get rid of them because of some crass commercial idea
(Deleted comment)
darkcryst
13th Dec, 2002 17:33 (UTC)
Re:
hahaha.... So like.. you skipped the rats and just decided to steal the children huh?
mslilly
13th Dec, 2002 07:06 (UTC)
IM (notso) HO
We've moved into an androgynous age; women fought diligently through the middle and late 20th C. for the right to "be like men," and now we are "being like men."

I'm a cynic and not much of a feminist when it comes to the gender wars. Mark once asked me if it was difficult being a misogynist and a woman. I laughed. I am certain that women and men are equal; I won't argue that we have equal value, but a woman can't do everything a man can do any more than a man can do everything a woman can. And I'm not talking about babies.

So in short, I think we're going stick-figure in denial of basic femininity. We're going for hard and edgy because, well, because we've moved into a culturally hard and edgy period of gender relations.

Interesting side note: I find men with sleek curves to be irresistably attractive. light my fire, so to speak.
darkcryst
13th Dec, 2002 11:34 (UTC)
Re: IM (notso) HO
oh sure... and posibly thats the psychological reasoning behind it.. but I'd argue the trend has been apparent for quite a while now.

I'm not dictating who should find what attractive, I'm merely stating my opinion about suitable and healthy role models.
rien_ordinaire
13th Dec, 2002 07:56 (UTC)
I would generally agree with you and jump on the band wagon, but the picture s pleasing to the eye. the curve of her back, she has a nice soft ass, she doesn't have the hard '80's legs. ..she is a representation of the beauty ideal at the time. ideals change with fashion and fashion changes with one's toilet paper roll...
darkcryst
13th Dec, 2002 11:32 (UTC)
Re:
sort of my point I guess...

Why are people slaves to fashion? Now more than ever! Not just the fashion of clothes.. but a body fashion. Its always been there, but now it seems to control people more. Its everywhere...

Yes that image is an image of an ideal (although Gil Elfren the artist actually used models for all his paintings, so she did exist) It was more an illustrative example.
( 38 comments — Leave a comment )